📍  📍  📍 Welcome to Healing From Emotional Abuse, the award-winning podcast that sheds light on the journey from victim to survivor. I’m your host Marissa f Cohen, and I’m thrilled to have you join us on this empowering and healing adventure, the Healing from Emotional Abuse podcast. Isn’t just another conversation.

It’s a sanctuary for those who have endured abuse and are determined to reclaim their lives. Through interviews with inspiring survivors, experts, and advocates, we aim to break the silence surrounding abuse and empower our listeners with the knowledge. Support and resources they need to break free from their past.

Our mission is to provide a safe space where survivors can share their stories, find solace in knowing they’re not alone, and discover the strength within themselves to heal and thrive. Each episode is filled with powerful narratives, practical strategies, and compassionate guidance to help you overcome the lingering effects of abuse and build a brighter future.

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Our conversations delve into topics such as emotional, physical, financial, and psychological abuse, recovery techniques, self-care strategies. Legal rights and much, much more. Join us as we embark on this transformative journey together. Subscribe to healing from emotional abuse on your favorite podcast platform.

And remember, your story matters, and you have the power to break your silence from the chains of abuse. I’m your host, Marissa f Cohen, and this is healing from emotional abuse. Let’s reclaim our lives and empower one another.

 Hey friends. Welcome back to Healing for Emotional Abuse. I’m your host, Marissa f Cohen, and I’m so excited for this week’s episode. Um, this interview is a. A little bit old. I think it’s about a year old. Um, but it’s with a dear friend of mine, Laura Richards, who is an incredible podcast host. And, um, we talk about her narcissistic marriage.

She was married to a narcissist for 33 years, starting when she was a young 22. And. We get into like the nitty gritty of things that he said to like weaponize against her and you know, how it made her feel and then getting out of it and healing and the different techniques that she used to heal. So I am so excited for you to listen to this week’s episode.

If you have any comments. Questions, concerns, um, anything about it, feel free to email us at Healing from Emotional abuse pod@gmail.com. Um, so thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoy this week’s episode. 

  📍  📍 Welcome back to The Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast. I’m your host, Marissa f Cohen, and today we’re joined with a really good friend of mine. I just met her a couple weeks ago, but like I’m in love. I feel like we’re best friends now. I know we talked a lot today, too. We got to know. Yes, we did. Well.

Presenting Laura Richards, um, we went to a mastermind together, um, met in Vegas and just kind of hit it off instantly. So welcome on. Laura. I’m so excited to have you. Hello everybody. How’s it going? We’re great. Thanks for asking. No kidding. Would you mind, would you mind introducing yourself? Sure. I will not mind.

I do not mind. I’m, uh, Laura Richards. I’m from Las Vegas, and, um, uh, for 15 years I was a speech therapist and, um, but most recently I am, um, a podcaster talking about the things that we don’t talk about in the, in the world, you know, like emotional abuse, like we’re talk about today. Grieving and death and abuse and widowhood and all the things that just we don’t talk about as women.

And so I’ve been doing that and I was married for 32 years and uh, recently, um, realized I was being emotionally abused and left that relationship. And so now I’m on my healing journey and trying to make a difference in the lives of others. That’s what I’m doing. And I also have three amazing grown children.

Very important thing to not forget. Yes. I try not to forget them. I know. No, not really. No. I love them. And I also have a son-in-law and, um, so they’re just, they’re amazing. Yes. I’m, I’m very thankful that they have survived all of this, so. That’s awesome. Thank you for sharing. And, um, I will be on, on Laura’s podcast Yes.

When it comes out. So I’ll link, I’ll link that to the show notes here too. Yep. Um, and thank you for putting together that podcast, the things that we need to talk about. You know, the more we talk about abuse and widowhood and miscarriages and all those, all, like all these things, the more we talk about them, the less taboo they’ll feel to talk about.

And also the more information we get. You know, in the last couple years, it’s completely unrelated, but in the last couple years. We started talking about miscarriages more because women were always blamed for them. Oh my gosh. And you find out that about 40% of women experience miscarriages, but the 40% are all quiet and have been guilted or feel embarrassed or ashamed.

So now, you know, everyone felt like an island. But now we’re starting to see, and it’s the same thing with abuse. Yeah. We’re starting to see the real frequency of it. Well, now you’re giving me more ideas. There you go. I’m happy to know and, and infertility and, you know, I know people who are struggling with infertility, you know, things like that, that we just don’t, I didn’t think of them because we’re not talking about them.

And one of my really good friends, I said, um, healing comes in community, she said, but it also comes when you have the conversation. So not just us hanging together, but actually being vulnerable and talking about these things so that we can all heal on our journey. Yeah, absolutely. You know, everybody feels silenced because we feel alone, like nobody will understand.

And then you find out one person understands and can relate, and then you find out 300 other people can, or in our case, 1.5 million people this year can. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That’s a lot. That’s a gross number, you know? Mm-hmm. One 5 million women specifically. Mm-hmm. Um, experience abuse every year. Yes. That’s terrible.

Yeah. And that’s just from the demographic that talks about it, you know? Right. Pretty, pretty awful. Yeah. So Laura, on a happy moment. That’s right. Why don’t you tell us your story? Okay. Well, I can laugh because I’m nine months out from my divorce and I am happily divorced. I will say that for the rest of my life I’m happily divorced because I felt so oppressed for so long.

My, um, ex and I were together for 33 years and, you know, 22-year-old Laura didn’t know what she was doing other than she trusted this guy and was looking for love in all the wrong places because, and I say that because I know how I was at 22, I, I just was awkward and insecure and I felt like, oh, this guy loves me.

And I think in his own way, he, maybe he did. I don’t know. I’m still working on all. I’m still trying to unravel what was a lie, what was not a lie, but whatever. I mean, I don’t think someone sticks around for 33 years without having something in there, you know? Um, and we had a really good time together and we met in college and, um, but I was, I went, I had a long relationship before that with a high school boyfriend, and so it was, I could see why it happened and.

So, you know, being nine months out and learning about narcissism and all this, it’s like manipulation. I’m still on this healing journey. It’s been amazing to, to my brain is like unraveling so many years, but I can laugh. I spent a lot of months crying lots and LA months crying. I spent a lot of years in my marriage crying, saying, I don’t think my husband likes me.

God, I don’t know what to do about that. I know, because, you know, they want you to, um, change your world for them, but to treat you like you don’t matter, which was. Like, now that I see that, I’m like, it’s so true. Like you have to change everything so that you can show me that you are devoted to me, but I’m gonna treat you like you don’t even matter to me.

And that was really hard for me because I’m such a words of affirmation kind of person or, or here’s an idea. I just like to be basically respected in the world and like, pretend like you like me. You’re asking for a lot, Laura. I am asking for a lot. I know. I wanted my basic wants and needs met. Okay. I don’t know.

I know. Oh, I, okay. Look, we can laugh now because this is how ridiculous it got. I got it down to one little tiny thing, uh, was like, I just need my basic, I need you to pretend like you care about me. I don’t know. And it was at that point probably would’ve been pretending for him. So. You know, I remember going through the honeymoon phase of all the excitement and you know, he told me he loved me right away and all those things.

All the things I wanted to hear, all the things that 22-year-old Laura wanted to hear. We got married really fast. We had both been in long relationships before that and so we got married really fast, which was okay with me. Thinking back, you know, I was like, yeah, I do wanna get married. And I kind of felt like, yeah, I didn’t wanna get married, I wanna have kids.

I wanna start my life. Because at that time, that seemed like, um, the goal for me, that was like the ultimate goal. Be married, have kids, start a family. You know, I was graduating from college. I don’t know it was in the plan, right? It was just, that’s what it was for me. It was on, that was, those were my life goals and.

So that’s what he was offering me. So that’s what we were doing. And so it seemed like it was good, but it was all those little things of we would fight about the same things over and over and over about the, I wouldn’t have done it that way. You’re, you’re not really thinking correctly. And I would feel kind of dumb about certain things when I felt like, other times when I was with my friends, they’d be like, you’re so smart in this area.

And I’d be like, really? Because my husband says I’m not, I didn’t know what to do. So that was weird. But the biggest thing for me was there was way too much flirting for me from other women. That was my biggest no-no. Um. That was, that was a cross, uh, crossing a line that I didn’t like in our marriage.

Don’t know that he ever physically cheated on me, but it was enough to bother me. We went to therapy over it like millions of times, and he always promised he would stop, and now he’s engaged to his current. I’ll promise I’ll just stop. She’s just my friend. Oh God. Oh no, we’re like, she’s like my sister. Oh, no, no.

Really? We’re just friends. Oh, yes. She told me that he was like a brother to her, and we were like, okay. Yes, but now you guys are getting married, so you’re weird. That’s a weird family dynamic, huh? We a lot of porn about that. Oh my gosh. You know, and so it’s really hard. Yeah. She was a mutual friend, so it, but that was always going on in our marriage.

That was the biggest thing for me. I felt very devalued that way. And devaluing, I know is kind of part of the, the narcissistic way. I didn’t know he was a narcissist until the last year and a half or so. Then I was like, oh, something’s happening. I’m being gaslighted. I didn’t even know what that was. I just thought my husband’s like a jerk to me.

Like he’s such a jerk or an asshole, really? But I’m like, or Dick, that’s my favorite. Just go a back and forth douche bag. What’s next? Right? I mean, that was my word of choice. I’m like, gosh, what a dick. Like, yeah. It’s like, why are you treating me like this? You say you love me. You say you wanna, you know, we’re making all these plans.

For the future. Future, we’re gonna go do this, we’re gonna go do that. And, you know, nothing was ever good enough. I wasn’t good enough, I wasn’t doing anything right. And then, um, I made the mistake of, you know, um, my mom passed away and I grieved. How dare you. I know. Don’t forget, I know you’re not allowed to do that.

I know. I tried to have feelings and I was in a trauma from that and he, he did not like that. They don’t have real feelings. I think if they’re truly, you know, if it’s truly a psychological issue, I don’t know that they have a lot of true feelings and so he really did not know what to do. We had two deaths in a year and a half in my immediate family from, um, from COVID, and so that was really hard.

And frankly, we’re still kind of reeling from that. Still to this day, it’s coming up on the anniversary of my sister-in-law dying. And you know, he did not know what to do with that information. He just was like, I just like to choose happiness and not worry about it. You know, like she’s dead. Like we don’t just choose happiness.

I mean, I’m not confident that narcissists aren’t very similar if not overlapping with like sociopaths who literally is not. Feel emotional. I can’t relate to emotion. Yes, yes, I have heard that. You know, and I think there’s different levels and kind of like on the spectrum sort of thing, you know what I mean?

And, but I do believe that because there were some days I’m like. He’s like, you’re cold. Like there’s a coldness there, but I do know where the trauma comes from for him. And so I see that. And so that was never dealt with and so it was passed down. And so I refused to let that happen in my family with my children.

Um, we’re kind of. We’re, we’re working on that. I, I say things, you know, to be like, I don’t want you to end up like your dad, but let me be really specific of how I mean that, because I don’t want them, I don’t wanna be that mom. I don’t wanna be that ex-wife, but I, I think there’s some concerns, you know. So do you, do you notice any like, similar traits in your kids?

And you can feel free to not answer that if you’re not comfortable. Mm-hmm. Actually, I, I don’t, I’m very thankful for that. Um, because I was watching an episode from, uh, of a podcast from, or it was like a video, and I think she may have done a podcast on it too, from Dr. Caroline Leaf, and she was talking about how you prevent narcissism but build self-esteem.

And I think I, okay, so the, the running theme in our. Marriage was that I was a bad mom, but I know that that was just part of my devaluing. Uh, so I know that I’m a good mom because a lot of the things she was saying, I’m like, oh, I did those things. And so I see really good confidence in my kids, but not narcissism.

I see. Like it’s, it’s the difference between saying like, everything you do is great and here’s a trophy for everything you do compared to, well, you tried your best and. It’s the effort that you put in. And so tho that was just one example and I said, oh my gosh, that’s what I did for my kids. And so thank God I’m not seeing that.

And um, but they, two of them are in therapy kind of working that out. And so I’m really thankful for that and I hope they don’t mind that I’m just sharing their business. Well, we won’t, but, but there’s like a definitive difference between someone who’s high confidence and someone who’s narcissistic, right?

Yes. Yes. Someone with high confidence believes in themselves and somebody who’s narcissistic believes they’re better than everybody else. Right. Right. You could be confident and not narcissistic. And you could be narcissistic and not confident. Yes. Is, which is kind of funny to me, right? It’s like it’s, you feel like it’s, you’re better than everyone, but you actually don’t love yourself at all, you know?

Oh, no, for sure. And that, I thought that was really wild to me that, um, that I, when I found that out, that they’re actually really, they have really low self-esteem and not confident. I just remember my ex coming home from work and someone didn’t like him that day for something, and it would devastate him and I would be like.

Because I, I do a, I’ve done a lot of work, inner healing on being, um, more confident in myself because I grew up feeling like really insecure and awkward and all those things. And I got sick of being like, I can’t even, I don’t feel like I can function in the world and I just wanna be okay that if I make a mistake, it’s okay in this world.

And he would come home and it would devastate him. And then what I’m learning is, well, they can’t have somebody not like them. That’s not okay. And so he would go out of his way. Oh, I talked to so and so and you know, everything’s great again, like. Okay, great. I I, I’d be like, who cares? Like, literally, who cares about that guy?

Right? It’s like nobody you’re gonna see again, like, who cares? Right. But it, like, like you said, it really trips them up, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and that’s, I, I couldn’t imagine living a life like that, but you know, far be it for me to like empathize or sympathize for somebody like that, you know, like, oh, poor you, I kind of feel bad, but also you deserve this.

Like, yes, exactly. Well, and all my friends would say, like, say we all went out to dinner or something the next day, my friends would be like, oh, your husband is so nice. I’m like, he wouldn’t have you think any other way. You would never see anything. You could walk into a room, somebody could be kicking a dog.

You know, I’m just being speaking metaphorically. And he wouldn’t have said a word because he doesn’t want you to not like him. You know? So you can’t tell that person, Hey, you probably shouldn’t be kicking that dog. You know what I mean? It’s like it was. He was a people pleaser, which I would say that to some therapist and they would say like, he’s a narcissist, but a.

People pleaser and I’m like, yeah, those kind of go hand in hand. But maybe if they weren’t well versed in it, I dunno. I feel like I have a degree in narcissism at this point. We should just start giving them out. You know, I’m telling you, I just, how many years were you married? Okay, here’s your certificate.

Yeah. More than more than seven. You got one. You know you got one. That’s right. Oh man. Yes. Yes. That’s brutal. I’m so sorry that you dealt with all of that and, and had to, you know, find out the hard way what a horrible person he was. But you got out and you’ve been doing lots of self work, so that’s really incredible.

Yes, I have been doing a lot of self work. I’ve been doing for the last about seven years. We’ve had some, um, major life. Experiences. And so because of that I started doing intensive therapy and kind of off and on here and there, but some really big things that I just didn’t feel confident in going through by myself.

And so then the last couple of years, uh, really working with somebody ’cause I thought. Something’s going on and I think I heard the word gaslighting somewhere and I’m like, oh my gosh, what’s happening to me? So start stuff started unraveling. So therapy has been really, um, a great thing for me. And then I also love journaling and um.

I just, there’s a pen to paper kind of thing, and I like a good pen. I’m one of those weirdos that if you ask me to borrow my pen, I wanna know why. Why? Whatcha are you gonna do with it? Why? What are you gonna do with that? I’m gonna watch you the entire time and then bring it back to me. No, because I re, I just buy myself really nice pens.

That’s just one of the things I do. And I, I, you know, a nice notebook and in fact, I created a bunch of journals on Amazon. I love journaling so much that I’m like. Other people should have these journals. I, I just love doing that kind of thing. Either writing down, I’m so sad today, or What are all the good things or dreaming.

I love to go back and read my journals about all the dreams I’ve had and um, just so anything they’re in no order. I go from book to book depending on my mood, and that has been really helpful for me and getting the words out of my head so that I don’t feel like I’m replaying scenarios in my head over and over and over.

I feel like it’s important to write it down and be like, this was a hard day or this was a good day. And to see the progress of where I’ve come in the last nine months. So that’s been really good for me. And um, and. Walking, I love walking. And then recently started just kind of jogging a little. I’m not a runner in any way, shape or form, but that’s what I felt like I, I started feeling that.

And then really good friends who are safe and have either been through divorce like this or can really, um, lend a good ear and they’re wise and not just like, yeah, screw that guy. Not, not just those friends, but friends that are, they’ve, they’ve been through it and they can, um, kind of counsel me. Yeah. I love that.

I love that. So those are all really incredible techniques. Writing in general is fantastic. Journaling is even better, um, walking or physical exercise because it releases endorphins immediately and makes you feel better about yourself and more confident and, and having friends who have experienced something similar or you know, are just there to talk to.

But how do, how did you identify friends that were healthy for you to talk to? So the friends that were. How I identified them was you kind of share a little bit and you get a little bit vulnerable, and you have to be okay with doing that and be ready to be rejected. And by that I mean they don’t wanna talk about it.

They will change the subject. They don’t really offer any advice. They just kind of go like, Hmm. Or whatever. You know, you can just tell the people who don’t wanna move the conversation and really care about what you’re going through, maybe. Um, you, they, maybe they’re not comfortable. So those were the friends that I felt like they weren’t the friends that I needed to talk to about certain things.

They’re gonna be maybe more my surface level friends, and then I already have a good group of friends that I. I just see for coffee and things like that, we all kind of went to church together and have mo, you know, kind of moved apart and whatever. But we come together and we go to coffee or go have happy hour or whatever, and we feel like we can trust each other in saying like, this is a hard thing that’s happening.

And they, everyone listens and says, if you need me, I’m here to listen. So, especially those friends. Thank God for the friends who actually say, if you wanna talk, call me. Because then put them on your list of people to call. You know, when I wanted to send, um, text messages to my ex, you know, saying things I shouldn’t, they were like, send it to me, don’t send it to him.

So yeah, I’ve just listened for responses when I would try to share and then kind of made changes accordingly that way. That’s a great way to do it. You know? That’s how you identify people that you can trust. Mm-hmm. That respect. You won’t judge you. Yes. Right. You know, and that’s a big problem for people in our seat, you know?

Yes. We’re so used to being disrespected, and we’re so used to being mm-hmm. Demeaned and minimized that we end up looking for friends who have the same qualities. So being able to kind of like. You know, push a little bit and you know, what’s it called? Mm-hmm. Drop information, just like drip, drip, drip. See who’s more receptive.

Yes, yes. Really good. Really good way to do that. Yeah. And you know, the biggest thing is you have to be vulnerable. And so that’s something that I. Started working on and realizing was a, a good trait in, um, a good trait to have when I was dealing with a lot of codependency and things like that. Being vulnerable seemed to be like the opposite of that, and so I started to be more vulnerable.

And then you see who your tribe is once you start to be vulnerable. Because look, I don’t need people around me just being like, yeah, yeah. You know, like, yes men, I don’t need that. I need the real friends who tell me. Don’t send that text message, girl, you’re gonna look crazy. You know, those kinds of things I want, those are the friends I want and I have those.

So I’m thankful for that. That’s awesome. Yeah. I just wanna go back, you said something earlier and I really love this, but you use humor to cope. We laugh at our stories. We laugh at the most ridiculous stuff that they did to us. Yes. So do you have like a moment or like a timeframe where you stopped crying about it and started laughing about it?

Okay, well I grew up in a laughing house and so I’ve been laughing the whole time, but I’ve been, but there was a 90 crying, you know, 90% crying and 10% laughing kind of situation. And now it’s going more towards 95% laughing and maybe 5% crying. And I think, um, the thing for me is being comfortable that laughing is real.

It helps you to cope and that it’s okay to do. I have a very good friend and I, I don’t know if she’ll recognize herself in this story, but I, I will. It doesn’t matter, like the minute I sit in her car or walk in her front door, we’re laughing over the stupidest stuff. We’ve laughed at her. At her parents’ funerals and stuff, and not laughing because there’s death, but laughing because it’s a way that we have learned to be.

Um, and then being there for each other also in the intimate times where you wanna cry and all that. But it’s okay to laugh, I think, because it’s a way to cope. Doesn’t have to be at inappropriate times. You’re gonna have to judge them. That’s a judgment thing. But, um, and I do know when to, um, when to stop.

But, but for me, it’s just, it’s the way I grew up and I have just kind of, you know, I just started from the beginning laughing because I couldn’t believe my situation. I couldn’t believe that after 33 years he literally. Took this girl who I’ve been like watching from afar going, you’ve gotta be kidding me with this woman.

They’re gonna end up together. And then they ended up together. I couldn’t even believe it. So all I had, all I could do was laugh. I mean of I, of course I did a lot of crying, but all I could do was laugh. Yeah. Laughter is great medicine, you know? Yes. It’s, and sometimes, like you said, like these situations are so ridiculous that we allowed to happen and didn’t see, right.

On your podcast, we were talking about all the red flags that we did not. See, and, and now it’s like laughable that we missed all these things and like how ridiculous their behavior was. Like mine would throw tantrums about everything, and in the moment everything would stress me out. But thinking back, I’m like, God, you were such a fucking baby.

They will throw a toddler size fit. I am telling you, and I always, I always laugh and say, ’cause I saw this on a meme one time and I wish I could find it again, but it was, oh, that’s a nice red flag. I bet I could make a cute skirt out of it. Know that’s where I was. I could fix it. I could fix it. You know what I mean?

That that was my personality. And so now I, and look. We have to have grace for ourselves. Like that’s what, that’s how we were. And that’s okay. I, you know, and when you know better, you do better. So and so I know better. And so that’s why I wanna keep moving forward and heal, because I hope that someone listens to this and says, oh, that’s a red flag.

Well, it might be. Yeah. So listen up, learn something here. No, I’m just kidding. You never know. But that’s why I think sharing stories is important, right? Yeah. Right. Either red flags that I probably don’t remember from Yes. You know, don’t see still from my experiences and I’ll learn something new or Yes.

Even like a coping mechanism that I use. Mm-hmm. Or used during, right. I didn’t realize I was using. I learned that from other people, you know? And I, yes, and that’s the thing. And that’s why I think, um, what you do is so important. And then talking about these things, I thought it was so wise that my friend said, not just in community, that we heal, but in conversation.

Because if I never would’ve said anything to my friends if I would’ve just said, we’re getting divorced, and that’s it. We grew apart. But because I opened up, they were like, that happened to me and this is how I healed. You’re gonna, you’re gonna be okay. And so that was important to hear those stories.

And if we don’t talk about it, then we don’t know that other people have gone through it and other people have healed. And that’s where the hope comes in. Where now I, I live a life that’s full of hope. That doesn’t mean I don’t cry sometimes, and that it just means I live a life full of hope that my future looks bright and it’s better than being there with him.

Oh my God. Everything is better than being there with him. That’s right. Yes. I know. But it’s true. I mean, a lot of the people that you have heard come onto my podcast listeners mm-hmm. Are people that I met through talking about my experiences. Yes. And um, in fact, a lot of my best friends that I, you know, stay in touch with regularly, we connected because of similar stories.

Wow. It really, it makes an impact, right? There’s like a much deeper level of understanding Yes, yes. That you don’t get from people that don’t have those experiences. Right. So I think it’s so important and I, and so I do encourage your, your listeners to be vulnerable and just tell one trusted friend, say, hey.

I just wanna let you know I’m struggling because I wasn’t gonna say anything when we were getting divorced, because of course my ex said, don’t tell anybody yet, and whatever. But my sister and brother were the ones who noticed first that there was an issue. And so I did. I kind of was like, I was, I, I’m gonna say I was trapped because my sister called me and said, what’s happening?

There’s something wrong. Like, she just confronted me and so I wasn’t gonna lie. She knew I, you know, there was no way to lie about it at that point. Um, because I was really sad. I kind of wear whatever what you see, you know, I have that resting face that everybody knows what I’m thinking. Which is good, I think.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. Like, I’ll be like, what’s happening? You know? You know, and that’s okay. And, and so I, but I, I just encourage people to find a trusted friend, and even if you tell a little bit and say, I’m kind of worried about this situation, or What would you do? You know, because you never know how somebody could help you.

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this. Of course. Tell us where we can get your journals, where we can find your podcast. Sure. Well, I am everywhere on, that’s where I’m at podcast. Um, you can find me on all the socials and I have a, um, a website on there and my journals are linked in there.

I have a divorce, um, dur, a divorce journal for, you know, gratitude. Okay. ’cause you know, gratitude, I’m grateful that. Grateful. I’m divorced. Sorry. Uh, no, not, sorry, sorry. Apologize. Yeah, don’t apologize at, at all. Well, yeah, you’re divorced. That’s right. Sorry. Happily. And I have just a lot of other journals because I just think journaling is so important and some are salty and some are, um, with scriptures, I, I, ’cause I go, I fly around both sides of the spectrum.

Spectrum, you know, I cuss and I also will recite scripture to you. That’s who I am. But everywhere. Yeah, I’m everywhere. And that’s where I’m at podcast and that’s where I’m at podcast.com. Perfect. Thank you again so much for being here and so candid and honest of it’s, it’s so nice to have just like flowing conversations.

Yes. So easy. I am so glad that I’m at this point where we can sit and talk about it and kind of laugh about it. I love it. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Anytime. You’re welcome back. Literally anytime. Okay, great.